Within the chronically-online world of 2025, it’s nearly unattainable to keep away from the saturating presence of podcasters, pundits, and social-media influencers within the “manosphere”—individuals who promise males admiration, well being, and success, however who typically have concepts of masculinity that go away males feeling much more wounded and remoted. Jon Macaskill and Will Schneider from Males Speaking Mindfulness are devoting themselves to reaching males the place they’re, of their wrestle, confusion, and eager for a lifetime of that means and connection. On this wide-ranging dialog with former Aware editor Amber Tucker, Macaskill and Schneider supply a perspective on what mindfulness for males can present in a world that wants genuine males greater than ever. And so they share a imaginative and prescient of what it’s to be a person that’s much less concerning the efficiency of manliness and extra about being genuinely resilient, clever, and related.
Two Paths to Discovering Mindfulness
Amber: I’d love to begin by asking about every of your paths to mindfulness. Jon, I do know that you just’re a retired US Navy SEAL Commander, and Will got here from being a yoga trainer and a coach—two paths that lots of people wouldn’t see as meshing naturally collectively. How did you personally uncover mindfulness, and what did it take to combine mindfulness into your lives?
Jon: My path to mindfulness, and I feel Will and I’ve this in widespread, is that it form of got here out of necessity. I had struggled with some anxiousness, with survivor’s guilt, melancholy, after which over and above that, as a SEAL, you’re educated to push by means of ache—I’d like to say ignore stress, however I feel typically we even carry stress onto ourselves after which simply preserve going.
However finally, you realize, that method broke me. I wasn’t in a position to deal with it anymore, bodily, mentally, and emotionally. After I received to some extent the place all that was at a top—the place I used to be scuffling with the post-traumatic stress and sleepless nights—I had mindfulness launched to me by a counselor. I first laughed at him as a result of I assumed that, being a particular operator, I didn’t want mindfulness and meditation. He form of flipped the script on me and he stated, “Properly, what if I had a capsule that I may give to you that may change your efficiency?” As particular operators, we’re all the time on the lookout for one thing that’s going to enhance our efficiency. And as you might guess, that capsule wasn’t a capsule in any respect. It was mindfulness and meditation.
So, as a result of it was bought to me as a “efficiency enhancement,” then I attempted it. And lengthy story quick, I attempted for a number of months, and it did assist me to deal with the stress and anxiousness higher. I received that efficiency enchancment that he had promised me, however I additionally was in a position to handle stress. At first I didn’t belief it, nevertheless it gave me an actual shot at not simply slowing down, but additionally being current. What I had perceived as a form of weak spot, practising mindfulness and meditation, wasn’t that in any respect. It was a power, and it gave me these instruments to face what I’d been avoiding. It gave me the instruments to control my feelings higher. I wouldn’t say that I’m an professional on regulating my feelings, however I’m higher. After which to reconnect: reconnect with my household, reconnect with pals. I feel most significantly, the power to really join with my genuine self.
To combine that into my life, it took some self-discipline to do persistently. It’s simple to do mindfulness or to be conscious and apply meditation a few times after which perhaps a few days in a row after which drop off. However by staying constant, making it a day by day apply, it’s modified how I lead, how I father, and finally how I stay.
Will: I actually discovered meditation first, even earlier than yoga, again round 2006. I used to be at some extent in my life the place I simply moved to New York Metropolis, and I used to be pursuing life as an actor right here within the metropolis: auditioning, coaching, doing lots of theater, I began doing tv. I simply wished to be extra current, and I additionally wanted to handle the anxiousness that comes with efficiency. I began with Transcendental Meditation (TM) and it began to assist. Truthfully, it was difficult to take a seat and meditate twice a day for 20 minutes with the TM alone, not having a gaggle that I’m meditating with, or not having the net alternatives like we do these days. It was very irritating at first. I’m having all these totally different experiences, my thoughts simply retains wandering, and I don’t really feel like I’m doing something. Then a couple of 12 months and a half later, after the sputtering begins with making an attempt to work with meditation, then I actually grew to become extra constant. It helped when I discovered yoga across the identical time, particularly yoga asana apply. There was this complete conscious motion within me, making an attempt to care for my thoughts. On the identical time, I used to be caring for my physique. It felt like, That is my apply. It’s been an unbelievable profit to me. It nonetheless is, day-after-day that I apply. Now I’ve been with the [Men Talking Mindfulness] present, and the work that I do with teaching, and I incorporate all of those abilities into what I’m educating right here now.
Beginning the Males Speaking Mindfulness Podcast
Amber: Let’s speak about Males Speaking Mindfulness, the podcast that you just co-host. It’s described as tackling tough topics like loneliness, trauma, dependancy, the unhealthy components of masculinity. Might you discuss a bit bit about a number of the most transformative conversations that you just’ve had? How have your visitors or listeners highlighted the facility of mindfulness and addressing these sorts of challenges?
Will: We’ve actually “attacked” mindfulness from so many various angles! And with Jon and I each being practitioners, we’ve got lots of nice authors that come on the present. The entire present has impacted my life, as a result of I’m a scholar first—the professional, if you’ll, of mindfulness who’s all the time studying. For me, a number of the ones that actually stick out have been No Extra Mr. Good Man with Dr. Robert Glover. Studying his e-book and seeing what the entire “good man” factor is, after which deconstructing why this complete nice-guy lifestyle just isn’t the best way to completely embrace all the facility of your masculinity, was actually profound for me.
After which we had Jon Eldredge on the present, New York Instances bestseller. I cherished his e-book, Wild at Coronary heart. That dialog with him included understanding the three core rules that stay within the soul of masculinity: all the time having a way of journey, having that relationship in your life, and having a battle to battle, having your mission. I simply got here again from a two-week journey to Peru, which is sort of an journey. I’m nonetheless engaged on the connection half, however I undoubtedly have the opposite two fairly synced up. I preserve all of the books that I’ve learn for the present! One after the opposite of our visitors have simply been so useful. Lots of them come again to the core rules of mindfulness, being current, permitting that presence to gentle up your biology, and the nice biology that we’ve got that actually makes us, like, these great human beings that we will be if we let go of the stress and anxiousness.
Jon: One dialog that’s leaping to thoughts proper now’s our dialog with the 2 Eds, Dr. Ed Adams and Ed Frauenheim. They co-wrote Reinventing Masculinity, the place they challenged the concept that males have to suit into this inflexible mildew that you just’re both robust otherwise you’re not a person. That stood out to me, and it struck a chord with our viewers as a result of we heard from males who stated issues like, “I assumed I used to be damaged as a result of I didn’t match the stereotype,” or “Now I notice there’s power in being genuine and being who I’m.”
We additionally had Jocko Willink on, fellow retired Navy SEAL. There have been a few highly effective moments in that speak about balancing depth and presence. There’s lots of people who suppose you possibly can’t be intense and current concurrently, and the way mindfulness can truly make you a stronger chief. We’ve had Dr. Mark Gordon on. And Mark shared about all these totally different sorts of groundbreaking insights on the brain-body connection. He’s a neuroendocrinologist. We’ve had Dr. Rob Kelly come on thrice. And he’s talked about function and recovering from dependancy. We’ve had multi-time Olympic champion, Apolo Ono, come on to replicate about how mindfulness formed his Olympic profession after which his transition afterward. We simply had Dan Millman on to elucidate The Method of the Peaceable Warrior, his e-book.
We’ve even had Congressman Tim Ryan on to speak about bringing mindfulness into politics. We’ve had Steven Kotler on to share how stream science connects on to efficiency and presence, and the way that’s all underpinned by mindfulness. So sorry, lots of title drop in there, however like Will stated, this present has modified the lives of a lot of our viewers, nevertheless it’s additionally modified our lives. We’ve got realized a lot about mindfulness, the way it’s tied into management, the way it’s tied into wealth, how it’s tied into well being, how it’s tied into nearly every thing that we do and it’s modified us for the higher. It’s my spiel.
Will: Yeah, we’re just like the little guinea pigs for the present. We simply strive stuff on, speak about it. So it’s been fairly enjoyable to be the scholars and the academics in what we’ve created.
The place to Begin If You’re Curious About Mindfulness
Amber: That’s unbelievable. Thanks a lot for each sharing a number of the breadth of various voices and backgrounds and areas of experience that you’ve on the podcast. Positively many acquainted names there for the Aware studying viewers, and in addition lots of new names. So I feel that’s fairly thrilling. You have been simply referring to… what listeners have shared with you about how the podcast has helped them to find mindfulness—perhaps help for the primary time, begin to construct a day by day apply, strengthen relationships, even assist to avoid wasting marriages and lots of different outcomes that I’m certain you’ve heard from individuals. I ponder: Why do you suppose the apply of mindfulness is resonating so strongly with so many males, significantly on this second in time?
Jon: I’ll go on that one first, Will, when you’re cool with that. What I discover attention-grabbing is that mindfulness, when you actually return in historical past, it resonated with males. We had the monks who introduced it into the world in a number of other ways, however we additionally had warriors, these warriors that males at present examine.
We learn concerning the Spartans, we examine samurai, and in a roundabout way they practiced meditation earlier than they went on the battlefield in order that they might be current, in order that they might be calm. Relatively than bumping chests and smelling these smelling salts earlier than they went out, they calmed themselves down.
I feel males are realizing that this playbook of suck it up or man up, it doesn’t work anymore. And males are realizing that we will present vulnerability and authenticity as a result of suck it up or man up results in damaged marriages. It results in psychological well being issues or challenges, and it leaves lots of males struggling in silence.
I feel mindfulness resonates as a result of it doesn’t ask you to surrender toughness. Lots of people suppose that when you apply mindfulness, that you just’re giving up toughness, and also you don’t. I feel it really lets you redefine what toughness appears like. It takes actual power to be current, to really feel your feelings and to control these feelings. I don’t need to “management them,” however regulate them. After which it additionally takes actual power and braveness to face your challenges with out numbing out, with out alcohol, with out medication. Should you frequently numb these challenges, then you definately’re not going to return out of them. And that’s why I feel guys just like the names that I discussed earlier than, like Jaco, Olympians like Apollo, these big-time thought leaders like Steven Kotler, after which congressmen like Tim Ryan—I feel that’s what they’re discovering worth on this proper now.
Will: I feel the world is simply experiencing a stage of chaos that it’s not used to, as a result of what I’m seeing, I’m certain we’re all feeling it, is due to the infiltration of expertise in our lives, like in all places, with social media, with the speed of messaging that you just get by means of, whether or not it’s textual content or e mail or Instagram or no matter platform you’re on, it’s similar to message, message, and message. There appears to be a better demand for our consideration in so many various locations.
Mindfulness is that this pure steadiness that’s coming into society, as a result of every thing has its reverse. If chaos is occurring, then what’s the equalizer? I really feel for human beings, lots of it’s mindfulness. How can we turn out to be not so simply triggered? How can we handle our emotions? And mindfulness helps us to try this.
I feel additionally for males particularly, the best way that we’ve labored historically because the industrial revolution has modified dramatically, as nicely. It requires an entire different set of abilities that we didn’t must activate if we have been simply doing a daily nine-to-five within the manufacturing facility. Additionally the roles within the household have modified. The household dynamics have modified. We’ve got two working dad and mom fairly often, and what does that require? That requires much more communication. How are we speaking? Mindfulness for males helps males to know themselves on a extra deep emotional stage. So that they’re not a slave to their feelings, not so simply annoyed or anxious or wired, and actually being simpler in no matter surroundings they’re in, whether or not it’s the household, whether or not it’s work, whether or not it was with their children, whether or not it’s some form of group occasion. So mindfulness helps the world in so some ways, however males for certain, as a result of these are abilities that weren’t taught in class. I imply, a few of them at the moment are, however no one over 20 years previous or 25 has actually been taught these abilities in class, and individuals are on the lookout for this place to study these instruments. That’s one factor that we’re doing, and it’s one factor that every one the mindfulness academics on the market are doing—serving to individuals to combine these instruments of their lives to allow them to cope with this new society that we’re in.
Amber: I actually recognize each of you chatting with that, particularly with the predominance of instruments like mindfulness and meditation seeming to be marketed towards girls at the present time. It’s good to have a reminder that that hasn’t all the time been the case. And really mindfulness is a instrument that’s for everyone, no matter how we’ve been educated, our gender, or something like that. It might probably profit all of us.
Jon: I simply need to leap in simply with one factor. I’m glad you stated that piece. As a result of the visitors that we talked about are all males. I feel each single one among them that we’ve talked about have been all males and much more particularly, white males. We even have had lots of girls and folk of coloration on. Theresa Larson is an effective good friend of ours. We’ve had her on to speak about being a conscious mom, which doesn’t sound like one thing that may go on a males’s present, however we’d like males to know what a mom goes by means of. We’ve had Ali and Atman Smith and Andrés González from the Holistic Life Basis. We’ve had Uma Naidu to return on and speak about conscious consuming. She’s a nutritionist. So I do need to guarantee that we seize that the present is a males’s present, however we’ve got lots of girls listeners, and we’ve got lots of girls visitors, as nicely.
Amber: Yeah, thanks for that. You’ve had Amishi Jha as nicely, I feel, proper?
Jon: Sure, she and Common Walt Piatt.
Amber: That should’ve been a strong dialog.
Will: Oh, yeah. They spoke so clearly, and it’s superior to have such a embellished normal, like actually being an enormous advocate for mindfulness, as a result of it impacts something you do, no matter what you’re making an attempt to do with it, it has an unbelievable influence. And I’m glad an increasing number of individuals are waking as much as this.
Many Completely different Methods to Method Mindfulness for Males
Amber: Yeah, bringing it into these contexts just like the navy the place individuals each really want it for efficiency, and in addition only for psychological well being and all the opposite good issues that mindfulness will help with. You’ve had a variety of very influential visitors, best-selling authors, Olympians, big enterprise leaders, politicians, many different individuals. And the way do you suppose that these numerous voices are contributing to your mission of adjusting the narrative round masculinity and psychological well being for males? A number of the individuals that you just talked with in your present is probably not mindfulness academics as such, however they’re nonetheless selling data and views that might match below the umbrella of mindfulness. Is that an correct approach of characterizing them?
Will: Yeah, I feel the best way we’ve approached the present is that there are such a lot of totally different angles you possibly can method mindfulness. We carry on consultants to assist us remedy a specific downside, or give us some perception into one thing, or to carry consciousness to one thing that may be useful in our lives.
From the masculinity viewpoint, we’re taught by our fathers, our coaches, our uncles, our brothers, simply to be robust. However the twenty first century is demanding better abilities, and actually that massive ability is being extra emotionally clever. So we’re making an attempt to open that dialog and present how extremely highly effective it’s once you turn out to be extra conscious of that complete, your thoughts, your feelings and your actions, how one can actually begin to change issues. It simply takes a bit little bit of apply. The aim for us is only for males to have happier, more healthy, extra peaceable lives due to what they’re studying from our present.
Jon: Yeah, and I’ll add to that in…we’ve received this swath of various visitors coming to speak about totally different approaches. I feel males typically take a look at these guys, or perhaps they take a look at me and Will and different males that they give the impression of being as much as, and so they say, This man has all of it collectively. What’s fallacious with me? After which they hear these excessive achievers admit that they wrestle, too. It normalizes the dialog, reveals that mindfulness is for everybody. Regardless of your background, regardless of your definition of success, we’re all human beings and all of us have struggles. And it doesn’t matter what your wrestle is, mindfulness just isn’t essentially going to alleviate that wrestle, nevertheless it’s going to assist in managing it.
Will: I imply, one of many rules of compassion is widespread humanity. We create an area for widespread humanity so individuals can hook up with different human beings which have been struggling, as nicely. One factor I’ve seen with all the nice leaders we’ve had on the present is that as a way to entry that greatness, vulnerability and authenticity are important. You must take a real stock of your self as a way to entry and unleash that subsequent stage of greatness.
What’s Forward?
Amber: If we glance forward, what do you hope that the long-term influence of Males Speaking Mindfulness will likely be?
Jon: My hope that we assist to shift the tradition so individuals see vulnerability, presence, and compassion as strengths, not weaknesses. Let’s say in 10 years, extra individuals are educating their children mindfulness. Extra leaders are main with that emotional intelligence. Perhaps corporations are hiring extra individuals based mostly on their emotional intelligence and never simply their resume. After which fewer individuals are struggling in silence. Then I really feel that we’ve performed our job. Each one that listens and modifications, even in a small approach, impacts their household, their office, their group. Over time, these ripples add as much as perhaps altering a society, perhaps altering the nation, altering the world.
Will: I don’t have rather more to say than what Jon has stated. It’s thrilling to see the influence we’re already having. If we’re in a position to have this type of ubiquitous influence with the boys which are plugging in now, it’s thrilling to see the place it may go. It’s only a matter of amplifying this platform and sharing our platform for different individuals to plug in. We’re simply nonetheless holding house for individuals to journey by means of, get what they want and go on the market and be extra conscious and stay extra compassionately and be higher leaders and be answerable for how they’re exhibiting up on this planet. I see my relationships in my quick household and my quick pals altering. I feel we’ve got one thing to do with that, it’s good to see that influence.
Amber: Properly, I feel when you’re truly beginning to change minds and lives inside your circles and your loved ones, that’s nearly as massive as altering the world, actually. For my part, that’s deep change. These are individuals who wouldn’t faux altering in entrance of you.
Will: Yeah, that’s true.
Amber: I feel it’s actually highly effective and actually invaluable how a lot you’ve grown what you’re doing and all of the individuals that you just’re reaching. So thanks for all of the work that you just do. I’d love to complete off on a notice of serving to perhaps a number of extra individuals, a number of extra males to find mindfulness. Once you’re speaking with different males who may be new to mindfulness, may wanna give it a strive, is there a primary apply that you’ve, like a sort of apply or an train that you just advocate simply to offer them a primary style of what that looks like and assist them get began?
Will: Yeah, we’ve been main this meditation course by means of Males Speaking Mindfulness for the final 12 months and a half. We’re truly gonna launch a brand new course coming quickly. What we’ve seen from all of the stuff that we studied from males is the very first thing that you may actually do to assist or have a big influence in your life is discovering your breath and slowing down your breath and attending to know your breath. I can not imagine the unbelievable influence in only a few weeks of attending to know your breath and dealing together with your breath a bit bit by means of totally different respiration practices. The sunshine bulbs begin going off, as a result of once you get calm and you start to make use of your breath as a instrument to get calm, you begin to see: Oh my God, that’s anxiousness. Why do I’ve so many expectations? Oh my God, I’m a perfectionist. The entire world begins to alter.
We discuss concerning the organic impacts on a regular basis about mindfulness, however attending to calm drops us into who we’re, our biology, the second, after which we will begin to discover a new path ahead. And it’s easy and it’s free, and you are able to do it on a regular basis in as little as 30 seconds or a minute, or you are able to do it for an hour.
Jon: I’d add on with the breath—completely absolutely imagine that’s an excellent place to begin—however I’ll say, together with his yoga courses, and males will are available there and so they need to be excellent on day one. And I feel lots of males do the identical factor with meditation. I did the identical. You must begin easy. One of many greatest errors males make is pondering that they should meditate for an hour a day on day one, or have some excellent setup, proper? However taking simply 5 gradual acutely aware breaths, like Will stated, everytime you really feel wired or overwhelmed, that may enable you to get to calm. That alone can shift your nervous system from that fight-or-flight into that calm and readability. Then from there, you possibly can discover longer, extra in-depth meditations. And we’ve shared a few of these on our present. We’ve got some on our YouTube channel. However begin small after which keep constant. It’s very very like the gymnasium. Should you go into the gymnasium, and also you crush a two-hour exercise and then you definately don’t work out once more for 2 weeks, that two-hours exercise was for naught. Should you sit down and meditate and also you meditate for an hour after which don’t meditate once more for weeks, that meditation was for naught. You keep devoted and also you do 10 minutes, even 5 minutes a day. You keep in keeping with it. You’re gonna get extra from that. So I say begin small, begin easy, after which keep constant.
Will: We speak about change and transformation, and the C phrase comes up each single time. Each visitor says: Be constant. Choose one factor. And repeat that factor for weeks. Get the boldness and the braveness. It’s been lots of enjoyable to have the ability to do this and have the opportunity do it successfully and see lives remodel.
The MTM Origin Story + Closing Ideas
Amber: Is there anything that you just wished to say or simply briefly speak about that I didn’t point out earlier than we shut issues up right here?
Will: I feel to assist anyone that’s like studying this text and needs to begin someplace or has been mindfulness-curious for some time, or perhaps they’ve tried and dabbled and struggled. I need to say: Get round different individuals which are doing it or be a part of a gaggle. That group power round mindfulness may be very highly effective and really encouraging and also you’re extra more likely to present up. Once more, that widespread humanity may be very useful for individuals since you don’t really feel so alone. You don’t really feel silly or unaccomplished or unsuccessful. You’re like, Oh, nicely, you’re scuffling with that, too. Okay, that is simply how it’s typically. So I feel that’s one factor I feel individuals ought to know as they go on this journey.
Jon: I’ll throw in there simply form of the origin story of the present. We’ve got a mutual good friend, a navy member who launched us to at least one one other. He heard that I used to be into the mindfulness house, and he had simply performed a retreat with Will. What was it performed in Peru, Will? I don’t know.
Will: No, I used to be in Bermuda, his title is Scott Tucker. We received to offer a bit shout out to Scott Tucker however yeah, we’re in Bremuda, however go forward, Jon.
Jon: Okay, so Scott had simply completed this retreat in Bermuda, comes again, he’s like, Hey, you’ve received to satisfy this man Will, introduces us. I’m going by means of my navy transition, so I’m getting launched to an entire lot of individuals in several industries. Scott introduces me to Will, and I’ve a cellphone name with him and on the finish of the dialog, Will says, Okay, nicely, when are we going to speak subsequent? And each time we spoke, Will would say, Hey, when are we going to speak subsequent? So we have been having these cellphone calls as soon as a month about mindfulness and meditation, speaking about our revelations, our challenges, new practices that we’ve discovered, no matter, after which COVID hit. I used to be watching Will on Instagram, and since Will is a yoga teacher, lots of his work needed to go digital. So I reached out to Will, I used to be like, Hey, man, what if we began a meditation and mindfulness Instagram Dwell the place we mainly simply have those self same cellphone calls that we have been having, however we’ve got them on Instagram Dwell? So we tried it, and we had like, six individuals tune in for the primary few reveals. Then we discovered tips on how to rip the Instagram Dwell audio off and create the podcast. We thought perhaps we’d get extra listeners as a podcast. So in case your readers return and hearken to a few of our first reveals, you’ll hear that the audio is approach worse. Now we document with skilled mics and headphones and considerably of a studio. Our rooms are arrange like studios, nevertheless it began actually tough. It began as an concept that spawned from COVID primarily and has been occurring for 5 years since then. It’s gone by means of a number of iterations of various audio software program and producers and totally different video software program. However we’ve come a great distance, and in and of itself, the present is a mindfulness apply. We take note of modifications. In order that’s a fast down and soiled dump of our origin story, if you’ll, if you need it to incorporate the story in any respect.
Amber: Thanks for filling in that hole, Jon. I feel there have been 1000’s of podcasts born throughout the pandemic, and also you’re one of many ones that has survived, and I’m certain that the entire mindfulness that goes into it’s a massive think about that.
Will: Yeah, and I feel it’s additionally one factor that’s actually helped us preserve the torch lit is us working collectively. I don’t know if this is able to be robust to do alone, as a result of it’s a protracted haul to get the place we’re. Jon and I encourage one another, preserve one another within the area. Now we’re 5 years later having a broader influence. We’ve got a group that’s serving to us to develop, as nicely. So it’s simply superior to see the place it’s at present.
Jon: In line with Feed Spot, which is a rating of sorts of podcasts within the class of mindfulness for 2025, we have been ranked quantity three on this planet by iHeartRadio. We have been listed as one of many high 10 mindfulness podcasts within the nation. After which globally, we’re within the high 1.5% of podcasts worldwide. So fairly pleased with that. We’ve come a great distance, and we haven’t arrived. We’re gonna proceed to press.
Will: Yeah, thanks a lot, for actual. It’s an enormous assist to get this on the market.
Amber: Thanks each. It’s been so great to collaborate, wherever we will during the last couple of years. I’ve actually loved it and appreciated it once we get to do issues collectively. I can’t wait to see what’s subsequent for every of you and for Males Speaking Mindfulness.
